User talk:SPECIFICO

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This user may have left Wikipedia. SPECIFICO has not edited Wikipedia since 29 January 2025. As a result, any requests made here may not receive a response. If you are seeking assistance, you may need to approach someone else.

@HJ Mitchell: I have sent you an email via the link on your talk page tools. SPECIFICO talk 14:04, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've seen it, don't worry. I'll reply when I get home to a proper keyboard. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 14:12, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. No rush at all. SPECIFICO talk 15:27, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Surely Donald j trump, 'was' a politician not is a politician..?— Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.2.144.16 (talk • contribs)

Area 51 Gallery...Templates of the aggrieved and indeffed
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
SPECIFICO and Magnolia677 engaged in coordinated editwar [edit] You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war. This means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be although other editors disagree. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus, rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement. Points to note: Edit warring is disruptive regardless of how many reverts you have made; Do not edit war even if you believe you are right. If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes and work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you engage in an edit war, you may be blocked from editing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Oppa gangnam psy (talk • contribs) SPECIFICO and Magnolia677 engaged in coordinated editwar (2) [edit] Your recent editing history shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war; that means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be, when you have seen that other editors disagree. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you are reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war. See the bold, revert, discuss cycle for how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection. Being involved in an edit war can result in you being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you do not violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Oppa gangnam psy (talk • contribs)

 Done

Hello fellow Wikipedia editor. I would like to inquire about the deletion you made of my comment on the talk page referenced in the header. As you know, editing or removing another's comments in talk is generally not best practice. After reviewing the removal, I can't tell if perhaps, however, I inadvertently posted my minor edit suggestion under another topic as a sub-heading? If that was your reasoning, though your comment associated with the action was somewhat rude, I will redo my not-nonsense comment under its own heading.

If you decided to remove my comment just because you didn't think it had merit, then I will let your edit stand and follow my own advice about expectations on Wikipedia. As an aside, you have a serial comma badge on your talk page; surely you understand the importance of, the proper use of, this particular punctuation.

If you would be kind enough to provide clarity so I know which path to take forward, I would much appreciate it.

I wish you all the best and tip my hat to your anti-fake news work, it must be exhausting. FranMichael (talk) 01:28, 16 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I think. SPECIFICO talk 01:57, 16 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

For clarity, the last sentence of my post was not sarcasm or snark; it was sincere.

Also, I see you clarified that Hunter is not the son of Joe, 'among others', so thanks for that as well.

~MP FranMichael (talk) 03:03, 16 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I knew. Folks don't waste their wits on sarcasm when they cue up the insults around here. SPECIFICO talk 03:59, 16 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

AMEN (don't waste or don't have... hmmm) FranMichael (talk) 05:22, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your visit. Come back any time. SPECIFICO talk 11:04, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Franchisemichael: I restored your comment. SPECIFICO really should not be removing any comments that are not "harmful" per talk page guideline. Politrukki (talk) 12:02, 29 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Although I am aware of the guidelines, I am really interested solely in quality forward-facing content which was the outcome. I will leave this discussion to the two of you. FranMichael (talk) 13:26, 29 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Politrukki, as you will see if you examine the chain of posts and discussion here, I fulfilled OP's request after initially removing it. So your comment here was gratuitous, misleading, and without constructive purpose. SPECIFICO talk 13:34, 29 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

FranMichael's edit did have "merit", yet you failed to restore their post. Politrukki (talk) 15:15, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Me and OP are good -- have been for two weeks. You, maybe not. OK, thanks for your visit. SPECIFICO talk 15:25, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Commenting only on the "Me and OP are good", because like I said no interest in the back and forth politics, this statement is 100% accurate. FranMichaelemichael|FranMichael (talk) 16:06, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, @Franchisemichael:. For pagewatchers who may be disappointed: I made a mistake. OP pointed it out. I fixed it. Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar. SPECIFICO talk 20:25, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

And sometimes its a smoke. FranMichael (talk) 01:15, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think you've made you view clear. Now you can go back to User talk:SPECIFICO#Talk:Hunter Biden#RfC about including the name of Hunter Biden's daughter. I have waited a reply from you for weeks. Please respond as soon as possible.

I also left you a note here. Please respond to that relatively soon (in a few days, if not hours – not weeks). Politrukki (talk) 22:37, 19 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm reaffirming my request. With regards to the discussion at Yodabyte's user talk page, they removed the discussion, but you may explain your position somewhere on this page. Politrukki (talk) 21:01, 8 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have a policy reason to change the RfC I've laid out? I've seen others laid out like this and never seen an object to it. Seems like a clean way of organizing the comments and also encourages comments like yours to go into the section called "discussion." Nemov (talk) 15:56, 13 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A direct response to an !vote can go directly beneath the !vote. Extended discussion generally goes in the separate section, as you say. Is that what concerned you? SPECIFICO talk 16:00, 13 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

So that's a "no" to having a policy reason against numbers? Nemov (talk) 16:08, 13 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

While we're here, perhaps you will consider adding that direct quote to the options in the RfC instead of just yes or no. SPECIFICO talk 16:02, 13 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The quote is already included in the article and there's no real objection to its inclusion so I don't want to confuse people who are unfamiliar. The question is about calling him a "climate denier." Commenteres can review the previous discussion. Nemov (talk) 16:08, 13 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I hadn't realized it was in the article, which I stopped reading a while back. I think the mainstream description of him will become much more clear over the next 3-6 months and it will be much easier to gain consensus that's reasonably free of editors' diverse interpretations. I am not a fan of labels in BLP articles. They are too much of an inkblot for each reader's interpretation. No doubt there's a better way of stating it than "denier". I wonder whether there's a more flexible way of stating the central issue of the RfC without using that word? SPECIFICO talk 16:25, 13 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I believe you're right about it being clearer over the next few months right. When I have time that entire policies section needs to be reworked into subsections. Nemov (talk) 16:34, 13 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I see you reinstated an edit challenged by revison here. That is a violation of the Arbitration remedies on the page Changes challenged by reversion may not be reinstated without affirmative consensus on the talk page. Please self revert. PackMecEng (talk) 19:12, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. The reason I reverted was that it went against "affirmative consensus" per the RfC close. The individual who made the change is aware of that close and jumped the gun on his close appeal by changing the description. If you don't mind, I'd appreciate you pursuiing this on the article talk page so that we can go with whatever is determined. OK with you? SPECIFICO talk 19:28, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The consensus is on the lead, not the short description. Next step is AE. PackMecEng (talk) 19:55, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This aggressive behaviour is very much unlike you, Pack. I'll self revert and copy your threats to the talk page, where we can see what others think about the substance without threatening. Thanks for your visit. SPECIFICO talk 19:58, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:09, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

To enforce an arbitration decision, and for battleground editing, casting aspersions, disruptive editing, you have been blocked from editing Wikipedia for a period of 2 weeks. You are welcome to edit once the block expires; however, please note that the repetition of similar behavior may result in a longer block or other sanctions.

If you believe this block is unjustified, please read the guide to appealing blocks (specifically this section) before appealing. Place the following on your talk page: {{unblock|reason=Please copy my appeal to the [[WP:AE|arbitration enforcement noticeboard]] or [[WP:AN|administrators' noticeboard]]. Your reason here OR place the reason below this template. ~~~~}}. If you intend to appeal on the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, I suggest you use the arbitration enforcement appeals template on your talk page so it can be copied over easily. You may also appeal directly to me (by email), before or instead of appealing on your talk page. 

ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:08, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

---

Reminder to administrators: In May 2014, ArbCom adopted the following procedure instructing administrators regarding Arbitration Enforcement blocks: "No administrator may modify a sanction placed by another administrator without: (1) the explicit prior affirmative consent of the enforcing administrator; or (2) prior affirmative agreement for the modification at (a) AE or (b) AN or (c) ARCA (see "Important notes" [in the procedure]). Administrators modifying sanctions out of process may at the discretion of the committee be desysopped."

And this is because I challenged your having repeated a false allegation against me an reciting a litany of what you beleive are my negative characteristics? Maybe you could explain in one or two sentences what precipitates this block that will doubtless appear to the community to have been a precipitous action taken out of pique? SPECIFICO talk 20:29, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In the ANI thread you cast aspersions multiple times. using it as a spear here and on my talk page for your annoyance at my meagre efforts toward NPOV content and talk page discussion... And of course your personal animus toward me, on and off-wiki is a matter of record. Very disappointing. Your "anyone who doesn't agree with me must be attacked" style editing there is also textbook WP:BATTLEGROUND, which you were continuing after I brought up you had been warned for it in the past. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:40, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

ASPERSIONS refers to statements that imply undocumented facts. In this thread, the facts were referenced or directly under discussion. Odd that you would pick that out of my chatter with nableezy, whose statements were quite hostile, and quite harsh. Those would have been much more of a concern to most observers and H J Mitchell had already covered them and I had already accepted what he said. Your accusing me of a general attitude that "anyone who doesn't agree with me must be attacked" is ASPERSION typical of your animus toward me. I am not responsible for your animus. As an INVOLVED Admin, you should not have blocked an editor immediately after I pointed out your having repeated a false accusation that OP made about my having twice removed that RfC. And it's all the more disappointing that, last I saw, did not do anything to recant your broadcasting of that lie at ANI. That's what inflames ANI and makes it so dysfunctional. But for an Admin to fall into the same trap of accepting unevidenced claims, even when I asked and OP declined, to provide such evidence -- that's below our expectation of Admins.

More fundamentally, it should have been clear to you that under the circumstances, when you decided that I needed to be blocked, you should have requested an UNINVOLVED Admin to review the thread.

Before you reply, you might want to review my participation at that Gaza War article and other pages. Your statement that I routinely attack editors in the course of talk page disagreements suggests to me that you are not familiar enough with my work on this to make such a statement. SPECIFICO talk 21:22, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Trying further to understand what could have prompted your reaction: this appears to be the exchange with nableezy that they first reference. Did you review that article talk page thread? Do you think I treated those with whom I disagree with attacks there? Do you think nableezy accurately conveyed the sense of my words there, or do you think that the context an manner in which he mentions them provided the basis for a more general statement about me that might mislead you and others? If I had said "basis" instead of "spear" would that have been AOK, but "spear" gets a block? SPECIFICO talk 21:51, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'll respond to a couple points you've brought up.

• I don't hold any particular animus towards you.
• I did not say that you removed the RFC twice, nor did I imply it. I did not repeat[ed] a false accusation. I said that I was of a similar mind to another admin. Being of a similar mind is not being of the same mind. Your response is another example of your battleground behavior.
• Being subject to attacks from an editor responding to administrator actions or comments does not make an admin involved.
• You are continuing your attacks and aspersions even now. accusing me of a general attitude that "anyone who doesn't agree with me must be attacked"... your broadcasting of that lie at ANI... Your statement that I routinely attack editors in the course of talk page disagreements
• There's a whole not of WP:NOTTHEM, both here and in the ANI thread.

ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:59, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• SFR, In the context of governance and enforcement, "animus" refers to adverse predisposition. It's quite evident, not just to me that you do have such a animus toward me. In WP terms it means that as an INVOLVED Admin, even if you were convinced that HJ was not adequately handling the situation, you should have allowed or solicited other Admins to handle your unevidenced assertion that I had posted some unspecified personal attack etc. You seem to think it's SKYBLUE that SPECIIFICO is uncivil, makes personal attacks, etc. -- that's the mark of an INVOLVED Admin who should not be making such a block. You also might take some time, if you're so inclined, to scrutinize the conduct of other involved editors in that ANI thread.
• I am busy today, I will respond to the substance later. I don't know whether I will appeal it, but this is not an appeal. There's no rush. It would do you credit to vacate the block or reduce it to time served, but that's up to you. SPECIFICO talk 16:48, 16 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Uninvolved user to weigh in. I think Specifico is somewhat unfairly maligned at times, but, I also do not think it is useful to cry INVOLVED unless you can show that with detailed diffs. I've found SFR to be fair and also willing to listen to reason and negotiate and explain. That's my 2c. Andre🚐 22:47, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Andre. This thread is not a formal appeal. I engaged here to try to sort this out directly with SFR. Among other things, wrt INVOLVED -- SFR's has cited his own (dubious) past sanctions of me as the basis for subsequent sanctions. I have previously voiced my concern about that and about SFR's having closed an ANI that included undocumented and untrue allegations and had been poisioned by unreasoned references to the length of my block log. I voiced some of my objections to that close at the time. Shortly thereafter SFR again sanctioned me, citing their own prior close as a factor in that second sanction. There's other things that I don't want to mention here because it would be unfair to do so without provding more detail and evidence than is appropriate for this informal discussion. SFR has listed their denials above, without responding to the substance of my concerns. It would be pointless to get into a one-sided recitation of my objections if SFR would rather not engage directly and informally. In the current situation, I had already acknowledged the mild rebuke from HJ, who made a constructive comment. We had moved on when SFR appeared and took various actions that I feel were inappropriate, some of which I've mentioned above. Above, SFR has listed their denials but has chosen not to discuss or explain the basis for his view, so unless they choose to engage, there's no reason to get into more at this venue. Actually, whether SFT is "fair" is a global that is not at issue here. An Admin can be acting in good faith but still be involved, biased, and defensive, and make serious errors adverse to other users and processes. I feel that this matter does need to be resolved, but there's no rush and being blocked again for a few days is not my concern. But I am repeatedly being maligned for the number of lines in my block log, in lieu of evidence and reasoned discussion. There's a mythic SPECIFICO character that gets attacked in these ANI threads. In this recent one, I was called a RGW social justice warrior, I believe -- quite something for apolitical neocon grandma like me. SPECIFICO talk 23:32, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think people respond to your tone, Specifico. I think despite how you see yourself you come across a certain kind of way sometimes. On Wikipedia, sometimes a bit of slow, sugary, thought can make a bitter pill go down smoother. Andre🚐 23:49, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yeh, but SFR did not block me 3 times for "tone." --- Is that the kind of terse response that I should be blocked for? 🤹🏻‍♀️. As you know, I'm one of the few CT editors who doesn't ban complainants from my user talk page. I do find, sometimes, that they don't like my civil repsonses, and sometimes it's best not to respond. But then when one doesn't respond, as in the recent matter, sometimes the visitor gets more upset. But at any rate, wrt tone, if you care to review the recent ANI -- look at the words of the other involved editors from the Gaza War page. SFR did not block either one for their tone or their false, undocumented accusation of a 1RR violation of removing a talk page post. As I've said it's still what part of this little nothing incident got me blocked, because the words SFR put in the block template do not appear to comport with the facts. SPECIFICO talk 00:26, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

ANI — that's the one where everyone-with-a-grudge-against-Specifico shows up and says you should be confined to the deepest WP dungeon until hell freezes over, right? An admin stepping in on the first day seems like a good outcome to me, compared to the last time I remember. I agree with Andrevan. Anyway, I missed you on the DT Talk page, and now I know why. Space4Time3Continuum2x (cowabunga) 13:54, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yep, well it's kind of a problem when one Admin repeatedly steps in front of other respected Admins' comments at ANI to make precipitous blocks. And doing that, apparently, without checking for diffs and apparently not differentiating between uninvolved comments on the evidence vs, undocumented pile-on. As I recall, you were blindsided by the quick close in the first one before you had a chance to comment. Then they cite their own dubious blocks for the subsequent blocks. I've thanked SFR in the past for volunteering their time to fignt vandalism, etc. But wrt to them being willing to "listen to reason" -- they have repeatedly chosen not to address my concern except with a list of denials, so who knows? SPECIFICO talk 16:06, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Specifico, even though we have been at loggerheads a few times, I recognize you have tens of thousands of edits under your belt. Why don't you try to change your approach in talk pages. I think it would be a negative thing if Wikipedia loses you for a future indefinite block. Sincerely, Thinker78 (talk) 04:31, 16 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thinker, I don't recall any disagreements with you beyond what's routine. Thanks for your comment. I am going to reply to SFR, so I may move your comment to another location on this page. As I just noticed directly above, SFR continues to misapply PAGs by calling "NOTTHEM" when it does not apply to this situation.When users see someone with the Admin badge make that kind of unsupported accusation, ,they tend to believe it and it functions as another ad hominem aspersion. Anyway, I am not in a rush to respond to SFR. It's even possible that they will undo their block before I have to take the time to prolong any discussion here. I need to tend to my animals today in the waning good weather. SPECIFICO talk 12:03, 16 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

	The Original Barnstar
	I`ve been trying to e-mail you but I don`t see a link..can we talk Anonymous8206 (talk) 16:11, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. Link in my "tools" drop down - you may need to have email in your preferences. SPECIFICO talk 16:30, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi; we've gotten along fine, and I believe we've agreed more than disagreed. But your partial revert of my removal is a blatant violation of WP:BLPRESTORE.

At Glenn Greenwald, you've reinstated an insinuation of antisemitism sourced to a blog, arguing that the author is a "notable expert". WP:EXPERTSPS requires expertise "in the relevant field" (law, not antisemite detection), and says: "Never use self-published sources as third-party sources about living people, even if the author is an expert" (boldface not mine). WP:BLPSPS requires expertise (again, wrong field), and being "subject to the newspaper's full editorial control", which isn't true here (hosted by WaPo, but "We will retain full editorial control over what we write", source). That overrides WP:NEWSBLOG, but it too urges "caution". None of thees policies plausibly allow this.

You also reinstated a WP:COATRACK paragraph about an accusation of antisemitism directed at Rashida Tlaib, who Greenwald defended. The first source doesn't even mention Greenwald. The second source is an interview of Greenwald by Democracy Now! (which is WP:MREL). That's tenuously sourced and not plausibly due. Your revert rationale was based on Greenwald's documented interaction with Omar; yet the material making this claim ("In an exchange with Greenwald in February 2019"), is in fact not supported by the citation.

Please self-revert, and please reexamine the two core content policies I linked. Thanks - DFlhb (talk) 15:17, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I believe that content is longstanding in the article page. I don't consider the WaPo publication a blog as WP defines it (published without editorial oversight). Anyway, I suggest posting on the talk page and soliciting comment at BLPN as well, if you wish. This page needs improvement in many respects, but I'm sure that this bit can be sorted out. There are lots of references that detail the Omar statement as predicate for Greenwald's and other observers' reaction(s). As you saw, I did sustain your removal of the poorly sourced part of the article content. SPECIFICO talk 15:44, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

One further thought: I do not see that this "BLP-sensitive" content (everything on the page is BLP sensitive) rises to the level of a violation of our BLP priniciple. It is description, attributed, of a noteworthy public controversy. However, there is nothing to prevent you from undoing my edit and citing in your edit summary that you believe it's a BLP violation so that you can make clear you do not consider it edit-warring. At any rate, talk page and BLPN discussion should be able to determine what we do with that content. SPECIFICO talk 16:01, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Just a little comment from up here in the peanut gallery - "longstanding" is a non-argument in the context of BLP. VQuakr (talk) 16:46, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Right, if it were clearly a violation. But this is attributed description of a public controversy, which is why nobody has previously removed it as if it were a violation. SPECIFICO talk 16:50, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No; again, you should follow WP:BLPRESTORE and self-revert. I'll bring this to WP:AE or ANI if I need to, because this is a pattern, and it's enough.

You can't seriously argue the blog isn't "published without editorial oversight", when the blog's author says in bold font that "We will retain full editorial control over what we write". That bold is from the source. I checked "longstanding"; that's even worse. It was disputed, and you gave the runaround to a less experienced editor, citing policy wrongly yet authoritatively. It shows that your misuse of policies is a long-standing issue.

You're continuing to do the same thing you just got blocked for. It strains credulity to think that you believe a blog is RS for antisemitism accusations, and also believe that Human Rights Watch statements on humanitarian law are "UNDUE and speculative", or that a source that says There is already “clear evidence” that war crimes may have been committed in the latest explosion of violence is about "past Israeli action" prior to the war (you said this repeatedly). Separately, just 2 weeks ago you asserted BLPRESTORE on tame, non-BLP material inside a BLP; yet now you're saying it’s unclear whether I had BLP concerns with antisemitism accusations?? These "geometrically-variable" policy interpretations that depend on the content's POV are clear-as-day battleground behavior, and you're continuing to do it, 2 weeks after being blocked for it.

Your recommendation to edit-war with you (while declining to self-revert) is ridiculous, especially since this is Palestine-Israel content where WP:1RR applies. You can't expect me to rely on the weak BLP exception to 1RR. DFlhb (talk) 18:46, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Are you saying that SPECIFICO has a pattern of BLP violations? What is the pattern to which you refer? Diffs and description of the pattern please, per policy. I specifically said above that if you cite your belief that you are reinstating your removal citing your belief that there's a BLP violation that it would not be considered edit warring. I am not calling your objection CRYBLP. I'm disappointed to see an undocumented threat here about a "pattern". I presume you have AGF disagreement. The BLPN and article talk page are where such disagreement can be thrashed out. SPECIFICO talk 19:03, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I already linked to diffs that show your policy interpretations differ significantly depending on the POV of the content, which is battleground editing, which you were just blocked for. DFlhb (talk) 19:20, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I understand that you disagree. I regard reference to an unrelated and highly dubious prior situation as unconstructive. SPECIFICO talk 19:28, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@DFlhb: I hate to prolong this, but when you wish to modify a comment of yours after another editor has replied to it, the words should be struck through with a timestamp to allow others to see the subsequent reply in context and to demonstrate when and what constituted the revision. Please amend your removal per WP:TPG. I hope you'll start a talk page thread now and we can proceed per BRD.👩🏻‍🦳 SPECIFICO talk 19:55, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The edit and revert were both after your reply, there's nothing to amend.

Do you not understand that I'm raising issues of conduct, not content? DFlhb (talk) 20:47, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, I'm Qwerfjkl (bot). I have automatically detected that this edit performed by you, on the page Louis Stettner, may have introduced referencing errors. They are as follows:

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Qfuhseeyjntom5694ddfv@#,.. SPECIFICO talk 18:26, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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I was surprised to see you remove this source. 99% of edits to this page are not preceded by talk page proposals to gain some consensus. I've been reading Klein's work for over a decade. Unlike the mass of newspaper sources and their journalists, he knows intimately the ins and outs of the politics of Hamas and Israel and and is peer-published on that. What he states about the Hamas accommodation in 2021 is well documented, if invisible on wiki pages for that period.

The point follows the standard paragraph which says many Western states consider Hamas ,a terrorist organization, while 'rogue' or non Western states don't consider it thus. The general impression given is that Hamas is nothing but an unbending terrorist organization. It is, properly, a political organization which has quite frequently resorted to terrorism, something not untypical of some Western states, and Israel. The difference is, Hamas is a non.or para-state actor.

The page per NPOV required in the background some bare notation that it also has engaged in political compromises both with the PA and, indirectly Israel, and this particular reaching out for a political arrangement via the PA is known to have been vetoed by the US and Israel. That is a fact and crucial, particularly since planning for the incursions and massacres seems to have begun in the immediate aftermath of the 2021 crisis. That is serious information, as opposed to generic statements that just state Hamas is a terrorist group and nothing else.

Finally, I cannot see any evidence that my edit was contested or reverted before you. No one challenged it on the talk page. You didn't open up a discussion on deleting the information either. In my experience, that is unusual coming from you. Nishidani (talk) 14:35, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Most readers of this article lack any context beyond what's within the page. Klein is fine, but I felt that the framing of Klein's view and the presentation of it out of context as if it were part of an undisputed historical timeline justifying Hamas' tactics, would mislead many readers. As you know, the ONUS to get talk page consensus is on the editor advocating for the content. I tried to provide my rationale for the revert in my edit summary, although I can understand that it was terse and unelaborated. Thanks for your note. SPECIFICO talk 14:41, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please seek consensus is not a reason for removal. Neither is ONUS, you need actual reasons to dispute something. nableezy - 15:44, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

And also, so I dont bother you with an unnecessary template, are you aware of the contentious topic designation for ARBPIA? If not happy to provide the template as it does not appear in your user talk history, but if you say you are aware can skip that bit of unpleasantness. nableezy - 15:45, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You've already done your unpleasantness for the day. I gave 3 reasons in my edit summary and discussed the issue here with Nishdiani. Talk page watchers will not be impressed with your participation. Template as you please. Since I've already been sanctioned by an eager Admin on this topic, I doubt you need to deploy your clicker. SPECIFICO talk 16:10, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Nope, youre right, been sanctioned in the topic area. Thanks for the reminder. nableezy - 16:38, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Come now, chaps. These pages are flooded by an understandably eager mass of editors, and we need calm minds and experienced hands to sort the mess. I noted a month ago that the sourcing exceeded that of the equally long 2014 war and we were barely into the war. I understand the necessity of documenting day by day, but I know all of that hectic newspapering of history will disappear when really reliable, technically informed scholarship kicks in. I tried to give one example of real insight from that small corner of scholarship.

Specifico. The context usually provided is an indictment by formulaic phrases. Everyone knows that Hamas has a reputation for terrorism. Hardly anyone knows its political history. There are several good books on it, and Paola Caridi's Dalla resistenza al regime, reissued and updated this month from her earlier book (which is available in English) to take in recent events, is the sort of thing that will eventually rewrite the narrative in encyclopedic terms.Nishidani (talk) 17:05, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If all our readers were as thoughtful as you and I then this would all be moot. But we're writing for anyone who stumbles by, so I think that our article text needs to be twitter/facebook-mindset resistant. The biggest problem I encounter on contentious pages is certainly not Verification, is rarely WEIGHT, but is almost always framing and context of the narration. SPECIFICO talk 18:01, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that framing and context are serious problems. We perhaps would disagree on how adequate our standard RS sources (NYTs, Washington Post, Jerusalem Post, Times of Israel, Haaretz, the Guardian etc.,) are in this regard. Reading these sources in an area whose scholarship I know fairly well, too often leaves me sighing. But I know I can do little about it, and must withhold my dissatisfaction while watching those sources dictate the narrative, hoping that some time in the future, a year or so down the lines, critical scholarship will begin to give us a documental basis on which to reconsider the articles we have. By then of course it will be too late to better inform readers stumbling by, who will take their impressions from unbalanced or tendentious sections, but our remit excludes us from worrying about that. I must catch a plane. Regards Nishidani (talk) 20:30, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The worst part, in American Politics articles, is that most editors have never cracked a book, let alone the scholarly researched literature. They form their opinions from the ether -- TV, social media, daily press -- then they google to find RS citations, not understanding that the mission of google is to give them what they want to see. Well, that's a good way to help folks search for what they want to find, but it's no way to evaluate NPOV weight. Best wishes. SPECIFICO talk 21:31, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You misunderstand. I was asking for attribution for the quote, as it is an opinion, per WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV. It is not a question of referencing. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 22:13, 6 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oh. Thanks but didn't you find it in one of the sources? SPECIFICO talk 22:14, 6 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't look. The WP:ONUS is on the editor who added it. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 22:15, 6 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Now done, in any case. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 22:18, 6 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi SPECIFICO,

I think your long Wikipedia experience and familiarities with policy would be a welcome voice on the current rfc on the Donald Trump 2024 presidential campaign talk page. There's been a lot of back and forth and I think we need some more experienced editors in the conversation. BootsED (talk) 01:59, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The RfC is proposing a specific statement that is kind of a flash in the pan and internet fodder while at the same time not proposing more extensive content about the larger topic of preparations the Trump camp is making to hobble the government and convert it to a personal instrument for the advancement of his personal intereests. I'm not sure anything will come of that RfC, but much work is indeed needed on a wide range of American Politics articles that reflect superficial news and internet reporting at the expense of the increasing body of books and scholarly literature on the events of the past 6-7 years. SPECIFICO talk 03:29, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, better sources are needed than internet news articles overall. A big problem with getting scholarly articles in my opinion is the paywalls present to view such articles, and popular databases such as JSTOR deliberately excluding the most recent articles for the past few years for copyright/pay reasons. If you have recommendations for books and scholarly literature, I would appreciate a list for myself and other editors to view in order to improve the quality of the wiki. BootsED (talk) 04:39, 10 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A librarian at a public or institutional location convenient to you can provide access to such work, as can any physical hookstore, if you are near one. SPECIFICO talk 08:26, 10 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Re this, Soibangla is being overly stubborn against solid arguments by multiple editors, exhibiting IDHT. Why not start this workshop thread yourself? I'd do it, but it would be too much involvement for my semi-retirement. You could start it off with your own proposed content option, with citations. ―Mandruss ☎ 23:58, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

thanks for the ping

also: bullshit soibangla (talk) 00:03, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

bullshit was predictable and the reason for no ping. Your angry, combative, non-AGF tone is offensive, un-Wikipedian, and unwelcome.

You may not have noticed that I'm trying to expedite the main article content that you want! For the umpteenth time (IDHT), you don't need an RfC consensus to propose specific content. So get on with it or get out of the way of others who are prepared to do so. ―Mandruss ☎ 00:40, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I am always happy to host a lttle spat among friends, but I believe that this content was being stonewalled by editors who showed no familiarity or concern with the subject matter. Polling says that half the US electorate are committed Republicans, so it's not surprising that some lesser but still significant minority of WP editors are unaware of what's published in most RS reporting and analysis. The Trump page suffered an earlier crop of same who either got TBANs or got bored blocking and went away. It's disappointing to think that the same thing can happen repeatedly with a new round of visitors. Fortunately, some very thougthful and well-informed new editors have arrived as well. Each time Soibangla has proposed some straightforward article content, various editors have risen up and beaten it down with straw man, red herring, and plum pudding arguments. And that's before the inevitable cheese course. SPECIFICO talk 01:10, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Are you saying that pursuit of this main article content is futile? Are you effectively resigning as an editor of contentious content, or just this contentious content? Your comments would seem to imply the former, since widespread editor incompetence would not be limited to this issue. Fortunately, some very thougthful and well-informed new editors have arrived as well. ―Mandruss ☎ 01:42, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No resignation. Just declining your kind invitation. SPECIFICO talk 01:53, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Chicken. DFlhb? BootsED? Andrevan? FormalDude? Cessaune? Bueller? Anyone? ―Mandruss ☎ 02:04, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Who me? How am I here? Am I the social assassin? Andre🚐 02:57, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Andrevan: The Larry David ref is lost on the likes of me. You're one of a number of experienced and competent editors who have supported some main article content (and aren't semi-retired). ―Mandruss ☎ 03:18, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'll take it as a compliment. Andre🚐 03:23, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If my intent was to compliment, I would've sent you a barnstar. Just stating fact. ―Mandruss ☎ 03:29, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

So are you dangling a barnstar if I do your bidding? Andre🚐 03:30, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't dangle, but the Magic 8 Ball says "outlook good". ―Mandruss ☎ 03:49, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Andre🚐 08:33, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I stand by my comment at the RfC. I don't see the point in trying to force editors into a specific proposal. WP:VOLUNTEER applies, and the RfC on if any of that content deserves inclusion in the first place is still ongoing. It makes since to me that you wouldn't want to take the time and effort drafting the content to propose when you don't even know if there is an appetite for any of it. Of course no one is precluded from drafting a specific proposal, but I don't see a clear a consensus that the RfC should be closed simply because it hasn't decided on the exact text to be added. ––FormalDude (talk) 12:31, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

These kinds of RfCs are counterproductive because you inevitably have people who support inclusion yet vote "oppose" because "proposal isn't specific enough". If we have to discuss each individual sentence before inclusion, so be it, but sources and policy are on "our" side and we should persevere and do that. The think I keep linking to was my proposal and is a good starting point. I thought there was consensus for the first 3 sentences, but didn't push it because that was when the E. Jean Carroll thing turned the talk page into such a mess that admins got involved.

The main BLP should mention it, but I think the priority should be to write a separate article, if the goal is to inform as many readers as possible and present the scholarship comprehensively enough that people understand it's not just 'talking points', 'partisan exaggerations', or 'just Trump being Trump'. Most people just follow TV and aren't aware of the scholarship (it's not partisan; few liberals grasp the complexity of the problem). The two most important AMPOL2 articles on Wikipedia are Democratic backsliding in the United States and any upcoming Donald Trump and authoritarianism article. Sadly I lack the time, and half-lost the will... - DFlhb (talk) 11:44, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@DFlhb: As you probably know, the separate article is already underway. I don't think it would suffer much if editors took the time to develop several options for main article content, which could then be presented in a new RfC. The question here is whether you have the time (and will) to kick off such a workshop; if you answered that question, I'm not seeing it. The proposal you linked above may be too much; we've been speaking of "two or three sentences", perhaps four. It might expand later, but that's enough to get us over the initial hurdle and any resistance to any main article content. ―Mandruss ☎ 11:57, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Missed one per this. PhotogenicScientist? No offense to any other experienced and competent editors who I've overlooked but might be persuaded. ―Mandruss ☎ 04:38, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for thinking of me in this holiday season. But I'm far past caring about any and all issues on the Trump bio page. The article and its talk page are both an appalling dump heap, and I generally have enough sense to stay far away. The one issue I opined in recently, I had brought up myself long ago, and still have some residual care for. Otherwise, Wikipedia gets the article it deserves, there. PhotogenicScientist (talk) 01:07, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@PhotogenicScientist: Fair enough. We all have to make similar decisions and choices. I semi-retired, but because of larger WP issues, not that article in particular. Good luck wherever you go. ―Mandruss ☎ 11:21, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Update the number of displaced people for me please. https://twitter.com/AliciaJ1985/status/1737961681794498946 173.44.89.180 (talk) 16:58, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please post any edit requests on the associated article talk pages. SPECIFICO talk 18:28, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

	The Random Acts of Kindness Barnstar
	For your spirited defense of me, I award you this smiley barnstar. Andre🚐 08:26, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following sanction now applies to you:

You are topic banned from the Palestine/Israel conflict, broadly construed, for 60 days.

You have been sanctioned for WP:BATTLEGROUND editing.[2][3][4][5][6][7]

This sanction is imposed in my capacity as an uninvolved administrator under the authority of the Arbitration Committee's decision at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Index/Palestine-Israel articles#Final decision and, if applicable, the contentious topics procedure. This sanction has been recorded in the log of sanctions. If the sanction includes a ban, please read the banning policy to ensure you understand what this means. If you do not comply with this sanction, you may be blocked for an extended period, by way of enforcement of this sanction—and you may also be made subject to further sanctions.

You may appeal this sanction using the process described here. I recommend that you use the arbitration enforcement appeals template if you wish to submit an appeal to the arbitration enforcement noticeboard. You may also appeal directly to me (on my talk page), before or instead of appealing to the noticeboard. Even if you appeal this sanction, you remain bound by it until you are notified by an uninvolved administrator that the appeal has been successful. You are also free to contact me on my talk page if anything of the above is unclear to you. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:16, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hey. This edit, and the corresponding addition to the article talk page are a pretty clear violation of the TBAN that you were sanctioned under on 26 December 2023. Will you please self-revert the removal from the article? Sideswipe9th (talk) 22:01, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I will undo that. I hope you will engage on talk as to my stated concern, which had nothing to do with the topic of the TBAN. As stated: My concern is recentism and UNDUE content and placement on the long article. Thanks for your note. SPECIFICO talk 22:23, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To enforce an arbitration decision, and for violating your topic ban, as you did here, here, here, and here., you have been blocked from editing Wikipedia for a period of 60 days. You are welcome to edit once the block expires; however, please note that the repetition of similar behavior may result in a longer block or other sanctions.

If you believe this block is unjustified, please read the guide to appealing blocks (specifically this section) before appealing. Place the following on your talk page: {{unblock|reason=Please copy my appeal to the [[WP:AE|arbitration enforcement noticeboard]] or [[WP:AN|administrators' noticeboard]]. Your reason here OR place the reason below this template. ~~~~}}. If you intend to appeal on the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, I suggest you use the arbitration enforcement appeals template on your talk page so it can be copied over easily. You may also appeal directly to me (by email), before or instead of appealing on your talk page. 

ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:41, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

---

Reminder to administrators: In May 2014, ArbCom adopted the following procedure instructing administrators regarding Arbitration Enforcement blocks: "No administrator may modify a sanction placed by another administrator without: (1) the explicit prior affirmative consent of the enforcing administrator; or (2) prior affirmative agreement for the modification at (a) AE or (b) AN or (c) ARCA (see "Important notes" [in the procedure]). Administrators modifying sanctions out of process may at the discretion of the committee be desysopped."

These edits do not relate to discussion of the topic of the ban, nor are they contentious. I suggest you reverse this. SPECIFICO talk 23:02, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WP:TBAN is clear, Unless clearly and unambiguously specified otherwise, a topic ban covers all pages (not only articles) broadly related to the topic, as well as the parts of other pages that are related to the topic, as encapsulated in the phrase "broadly construed". Editing sections of articles or talk pages is explicitly covered by the topic ban. Discussing sources related to the conflict is covered. Removing a section of criticism explicitly about the topic is covered. Discussing removal of criticism about the topic is covered. Editing the phrasing of the sentence In 2001, the Israeli–Palestinian peace process begun with the Oslo Accords in 1993 and 1995 collapsed with the start of the Second Intifada and the departure of committed peace broker Bill Clinton from office as U.S. president. is covered. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:47, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm aware that TBANs relate to such content wherever it occurs. But it's pretty tenuous to suggest that this uncontroversial copyedit of careless or incomprehensibly worded text is a violation of a TBAN on the Palestine Israel conflict so serious as to need a 60 day block from Wikipedia. Context and topic of the discussion, the intention of the editor, and the meaning of the edit matter. That's why Admins are given Discretionary powers. I've done a lot of editing on difficult pages and I have not seen that sort of minor copyedit draw that kind of Admin response. If I were to appeal this, you would need to demonstrate that these diffs were disruptive and that this block is necessry to prevent disruption. SPECIFICO talk 02:51, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you were to appeal this, you'd have to explain the edits about the Abraham Accords. Levivich (talk) 18:26, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Greetings. I certainly didn't the TBAN required me to stop participating there. You and I discussed some references there, so possibly you agree - or at least did at the time of the edits. At any rate, I took a look at the appeal criteria, and I believe it's #2 that applies overall. Thanks for your visit. SPECIFICO talk 20:46, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I had forgotten about the TBAN until I saw the block. I definitely think a TBAN on I-P covers Abraham Accords, there is no source about the accords that don't put it in the context of I-P, as does the first sentence of the background section of the Wikipedia article on it, which is the sentence you edited in the diff above. The entire Israel section of the Donald Trump article is covered by I-P broadly construed. Obvi.

TBH I don't say this because I want to see you TBANed or blocked and I actually have no opinion on the TBAN, I don't even know what it was for and never looked at the history (and don't care, no offense), and tbh 60 days sitewide block seems steep to me for "productive TBAN violations" which is how I'd categorize it.

When I saw your name with a line through it on the talk page, I came here to see what it was about, and seeing you talk about appeal, well, let's just say I felt I should give you a heads up lest you thought I thought AA aren't part of IP and deduce that others would have the same opinion. Personally I think an appeal of either the block or the TBAN could indeed be successful if the appeal addressed the AA-related edits (idk how exactly I've never won an appeal). So anyway now I've given you a heads up. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ :-) Levivich (talk) 02:43, 11 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting fact: Blocked editors do not have the "thanks" link for a talk page diff. So, thanks. The diffs cited for this block, if they are unambiguously a violation, were at any rate unintentional and clearly not disruptive. SFR knows I am unlikely to go to the trouble and/or drama of an appeal, so they have apparently chosen not engage here. See you in April. SPECIFICO talk 20:35, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The violations are clear and unambiguous, and an edit being constructive is not an exemption to a topic ban. Based on your initial responses and how this has played out in the past I didn't think that further engagement on my part would be constructive. The length of the sanction matches the length of the initial sanction that you violated, and is intended to prevent further disruption. That you are unable or unwilling to recognize your violation is evidence that such violations would recur. This is also evidenced by your long history of sanctions, which are generally answered with the type of behavior that led me to avoid engaging beyond what is necessary.

Look at your initial response to the block, These edits do not relate to discussion of the topic of the ban, nor are they contentious. I suggest you reverse this. Does that do anything to convince someone that the violations won't recur? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:28, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Welcome back . Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 14:40, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt when you left this antagonistic comment on my talk page. However, your revert this morning really was not appropriate. You are apparently deliberately ignoring an RfC. Please either explain how your edit does not violate the RfC, or state why the rules do not apply to you. Riposte97 (talk) 12:44, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Riposte97, editors have no responsibility to answer to you, especially not when the revert you're referring to (see Special:Diff/1222978008 for the actual revert) does not go against the RfC close you cite. TarnishedPath^talk 13:07, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If an uninvolved editor takes the view that the edit doesn't violate the RfC, I won't press the point any further. Riposte97 (talk) 21:57, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Riposte97, if you think alternative wording would better furfill the RfC close I'd encourage you engage (if you haven't already) in discussions at Talk:Donald Trump#North Korea in the lead, again. Happy editing. TarnishedPath^talk 23:07, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose you might agree that dishonest propaganda is inappropriate at Wikipedia. Would you really mean it though? I only ask because dishonest propaganda can be quite effective, and it empowers those who employ it. Anythingyouwant (talk) 03:01, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like you accidentally removed another user's comment.[8] ―Mandruss ☎ 03:05, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed by revert. Please try again. ―Mandruss ☎ 03:12, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. SPECIFICO talk 12:13, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

FYI:

W:NPOV [9]

Talk page RCUS [10]

81.0.36.0 (talk) 18:32, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello,

I am new, still learning, trying to understand. Thanks for helping.

I added a new citation to the Thomas Sowell to Reception section, i.e. Social Justice Fallacies was a NY Times bestseller month after it's publication. I was surprised to see my edit removed and this note: UNDUE PROMO. Should not have been marked a minor edit.

I am sorry for marking it as minor. I've now learned about: Help:Minor edit. But I'm still confused. I thought I was just adding a fact. Will the cited information be acceptable if, perhaps, reworded or put somewhere different in the text? I'd appreciate your advice. Thank you.

Best,

Anita Researcherasc (talk) 23:59, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. I did not mean to startle you with that "not minor" bit. Minor edits are things like typos or run-on sentence repair that do not change the content of the article or its meaning. The reason for the "m" tag is to save editors the time of reviewing such changes when they are unlikely to be of much interest or concern. I think the book belongs in the list of his publications. Thousands of books make the bestseller lists but few are particularly significant for an encyclopedia. If that volume attracts widespread attention, discussion, or criticism, it may become noteworthy enough to go in the article text. I hope this is helpful. SPECIFICO talk 02:40, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This edit of yours accuses me of “misrepresentation”. What are you talking about? I simply quoted the Mueller Report: “the investigation did not establish that members of the Trump campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government and its election interference activities”. Anythingyouwant (talk) 16:47, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is the conflation of SPECIFICO's use of the words "no collusion" ("please stop repeating the Trump/Barr lie "no collusion".") with a reply that is not about "collusion", but about "conspiracy" and "coordination". AYW's simple statement, on its own, is quite accurate, but it does not address what SPECIFICO wrote.

Mueller never said there was no "collusion", only "did not establish that members of the Trump campaign conspired or coordinated..." They did cooperate with the Russians in myriad ways, and aided and abetted the Russian election interference efforts in many ways. Many consider that to be collusion, which, although not illegal, is called treasonous by some sources, as the Trump campaign was aiding a military attack by the Russian military's GRU.

From Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections:

On March 5, 2017, James Clapper said, in an interview with Chuck Todd on Meet the Press that the January 2017 ICA did not have evidence of collusion, but that it might have become available after he left the government. He agreed with Todd that the "idea of collusion" was not proven at that time.^[1] On May 14, 2017, in an interview with George Stephanopoulos, Clapper explained more about the state of evidence for or against any collusion at the time of the January IC assessment, saying "there was no evidence of any collusion included in that report, that's not to say there wasn't evidence". He also stated he was also unaware of the existence of the formal investigation at that time.^[2] In November 2017, Clapper explained that at the time of the Stephanopoulos interview, he did not know about the efforts of George Papadopoulos to set up meetings between Trump associates and Kremlin officials, nor about the meeting at Trump Tower between Donald Trump Jr., Jared Kushner, Paul Manafort and a Russian lawyer.^[3]

See also: Mueller report#Conspiracy or coordination vs collusion. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 21:14, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So exactly where and when and how did I allegedly misrepresent anything? Anythingyouwant (talk) 00:56, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I can't speak for SPECIFICO, but your reply did not address SPECIFICO's point, while being presented as if it did. This is a very common conflation of terms, one deliberately used by Trump and his followers, and then uncritically adopted by many on the other side. People aren't careful. Words mean something, and precision is important. Trump deceptively means that because "conspiracy" was not proven, then neither was "collusion", but that's not true at all. There is evidence of conspiracy (some examples above, such as Papadopoulos and the promised "dirt on Clinton", Stone with WikiLeaks, and the Trump Tower meeting. There is also Manafort's passing election data to Russian intelligence.), and lots of evidence of collusion using many different terms. It's a long subject. 'nuff said. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 02:10, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If as you say "words mean something," what "precisely" does "collusion" mean? TFD (talk) 03:46, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Some equate conspiracy with collusion, but since Mueller, with his limited and strictly criminal investigation, made a difference between collusion (non-criminal) and conspiracy (criminal), and focused only on one, let's try the types of things he did find. Because they were not strictly criminal acts, he did nothing about them. His focus was only on finding illegal conspiracy that could stand up in court, an impossibly high bar. He also had his hands tied behind his back with a rule that forbade him from even finding anything prosecutable. He could not prosecute a sitting president, so he just gathered evidence, made no judgement about it, and handed it over to Congress, in hopes they would do something, but the Republican controlled Congress did nothing. In fact, it covered up for Trump and Russia. To prove conspiracy, one has to find written records or actual recordings where one party says "I will do this" and the other party says "Then I will do that." all in words than cannot be twisted or misunderstood. Such evidence is rare. I doubt if any such conspiracy ever existed. It was more of a tacit understanding, described by Mueller: Mueller report#Conspiracy or coordination vs collusion. Trump and Russia had common goals they kept secret, hence all the lying.

Also, there is the Senate Intelligence Committee report, which went much further than Mueller and was a national security and counterintelligence investigation, unlike Mueller's criminal investigation. The Senate investigation found a whole lot more nastiness, deceit, obstruction, and possible evidence of conspiracy and treason-like stuff. All of that can be described as collusion. These investigations found myriad secretive contacts and communications between Trump operatives and Russian officials and spies, cooperation with the Russians, aiding and abetting their efforts, sharing information and polling data, lying about contacts, shifting blame to Ukraine, promising Assange a pardon in exchange for him shifting blame to Ukraine, denying there was any interference, then denying it was Russia, then denying it was illegal or improper, then Trump claiming he had a right to do whatever he wanted, etc. That type of stuff. None of that requires any explicit "conspiracy" or "coordination". That's the type of stuff Trump and his campaign did to aid the Russians as they expected to benefit, and they did. It's all in the "collusion" wheelhouse. Our articles here detail all this, with sources.

You'd enjoy reading this quality team effort, from Lawfare's subject matter experts: A Collusion Reading Diary: What Did the Senate Intelligence Committee Find? Mueller was a pure amateur who failed beside the Senate Intel Committee. They went really deep:

"The fifth and final volume of the Select Intelligence Committee’s bipartisan report on Russian interference in the 2016 election is an incredibly long and detailed document. At a whopping 966 pages, volume 5 alone is more than twice the length of the Mueller report, and it covers a great deal more ground." -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 05:54, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

>"precision is important"

>"treason-like stuff"

Pick one. Riposte97 (talk) 07:22, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I'll read the Lawfare article. I just wanted to point out that at least in some jurisdictions, conspiracy does not require any written or spoken communication at all, merely a tacit agreement to engage in an illegal enterprise. I believe that argument was made in some of the Jan. 6 convictions, where we don't know if anything was spoken before intruders entered the Capitol building together. Of course it is a lot harder to prove. TFD (talk) 12:32, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

TFD, you're right. The authorities just have to have some sort of evidence that such a "tacit agreement" exists, and that's usually some sort of written or spoken evidence. It doesn't have to be a signed and notarized contract! From Mueller report#Conspiracy or coordination vs collusion: "Investigators further elaborated that merely having "two parties taking actions that were informed by or responsive to the other's actions or interests" was not enough to establish coordination." That statement by Mueller defines his understanding of both collusion and conspiracy:

1. Collusion: He described what was happening between the Trump campaign and Russians as "two parties taking actions that were informed by or responsive to the other's actions or interests". That happened a whole lot.
2. Conspiracy: More than just "two parties taking actions that were informed by or responsive to the other's actions or interests" Coordination must be involved. Mueller uses "coordination" as a synonym or necessary part of "conspiracy".

George Croner of the Foreign Policy Research Institute has also expressed his concerns with what he describes as a "curiously flaccid" approach taken by Mueller in dealing with what the public would normally interpret as "coordination". He sees Mueller's dependence on a formal "tacit agreement" approach as "an overly cautious" and "legalistic construct".

From Mueller_special_counsel_investigation#Conspiracy_vs_collusion: "They also investigated if members of the Trump campaign "coordinated" with Russia, using the definition of "coordination" as having "an agreement — tacit or express — between the Trump campaign and the Russian government on election interference". Investigators further elaborated that merely having "two parties taking actions that were informed by or responsive to the other's actions or interests" was not enough to establish coordination."

So there are different ways of describing these things, and while the Mueller report did not prove "conspiracy" or "coordination" beyond a shadow of a doubt, the Senate Intelligence Committee report did find evidence of collusion and some instances of possible conspiracy, such has Donald Trump's knowledge of, not reporting, and lying about the Russian government's promised offer of dirt at the Trump Tower meeting. That promise was a followup to the previous promise to Papadopoulos that the Russians would release dirt on Hillary to help the Trump campaign. When Donald Trump Jr. got the message that dirt would be provided at the Trump Tower meeting, he was ecstatic, as he probably thought that this was finally what Papadopoulos told the campaign they would get. He was disappointed. The Russians don't seem to have any serious dirt on Hillary, just embarrassing minor stuff.

"The Committee's bipartisan Report unambiguously shows that members of the Trump Campaign cooperated with Russian efforts to get Trump elected. It recounts efforts by Trump and his team to obtain dirt on their opponent from operatives acting on behalf of the Russian government. It reveals the extraordinary lengths by which Trump and his associates actively sought to enable the Russian interference operation by amplifying its electoral impact and rewarding its perpetrators—even after being warned of its Russian origins. And it presents, for the first time, concerning evidence that the head of the Trump Campaign was directly connected to the Russian meddling through his communications with an individual found to be a Russian intelligence officer."[11] -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 18:07, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your contribution to Wikipedia. I would like to know your opinion when you are free about adding See Also section on Trump article. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 12:25, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'll have a look, but my first reaction is that section would grow as wide as the Milky Way and be unmanageable. See also, hair, hype, humility, etc. SPECIFICO talk 20:27, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I noticed that you voted as an arbitrator on an ARCA motion. Did you mean to do this? — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 02:13, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

oops. would you mind moving it? I don't understand the structure there. THANKS. SPECIFICO talk 02:16, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done. I've created a section for you.

WP:ARCA is something where all the non-arbs have to keep their comments in their own named sections, so if you have any comments they will have to go in that section. Only arbitrators can vote on motions. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 02:20, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I should have noticed why the votes were numbered, not bulleted. SPECIFICO talk 02:22, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following topic ban now applies to you:

You are indefinitely topic banned from Donald Trump, broadly construed. You are also topic banned from post-1992 American politics, broadly construed, for six months.

You have been sanctioned for continuation of WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior and incivility that resulted in a community-imposed topic ban here. Most recently this was demonstrated here.

This topic ban is imposed in my capacity as an uninvolved administrator under the authority of the Arbitration Committee's decision at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/American politics 2#Final decision and, if applicable, the contentious topics procedure. This sanction has been recorded in the log of sanctions. Please read WP:TBAN to understand what a topic ban is. If you do not comply with this topic ban, you may be blocked for an extended period, by way of enforcement of this sanction—and you may also be made subject to further sanctions.

You may appeal this sanction using the process described here. I recommend that you use the arbitration enforcement appeals template if you wish to submit an appeal to the arbitration enforcement noticeboard. You may also appeal directly to me (on my talk page), before or instead of appealing to the noticeboard. Even if you appeal this sanction, you remain bound by it until you are notified by an uninvolved administrator that the appeal has been successful. You are also free to contact me on my talk page if anything above is unclear to you. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:17, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Diffs, please. SPECIFICO talk 01:42, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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You are receiving this message because you are on the update list for Palestine-Israel articles 5. The drafters note that the scope of the case was somewhat unclear, and clarify that the scope is The interaction of named parties in the WP:PIA topic area and examination of the WP:AE process that led to two referrals to WP:ARCA. Because this was unclear, two changes are being made:

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The arbitration case Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel articles 5 has now closed and the final decision is viewable at the link above. The following remedies have been enacted:

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For the Arbitration Committee, SilverLocust 💬 23:58, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss this at: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard § Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel articles 5 closed

Hi! I happened to see the box on your user page that says "Dieser Benutzer hat kein Artikel für die deutschsprachige Wikipedia erstellt". That sentence contains a slight grammatically error, it should be "Dieser Benutzer hat keinen Artikel für die deutschsprachige Wikipedia erstellt". Another issue: German is more gendered than English, "Dieser Benutzer" is the masculine form, "Diese Benutzerin" would be the feminine version. In conclusion, you may want to change the sentence to "Diese Benutzerin hat keinen Artikel für die deutschsprachige Wikipedia erstellt". Just wanted to let you know. Happy editing! — Chrisahn (talk) 17:30, 1 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Hello SPECIFICO: Enjoy the holiday season and winter solstice if it's occurring in your area of the world, and thanks for your work to maintain, improve and expand Wikipedia. Cheers, Iljhgtn (talk) 18:43, 24 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Iljhgtn (talk) 18:43, 24 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]

We wish you a Merry Christmas,

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May your holidays be filled with peace and joy. Spread the WikiLove by wishing another user a Merry Christmas, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Happy New Year! Thedarkknightli (talk) 20:14, 24 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Adapted from {{Xmas6}}. Spread the cheer by adding {{subst:User:Altamel/Christmas}} to their talk page.

Thedarkknightli (talk) 20:14, 24 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]