Talk:Rupert Sheldrake

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Please read before starting Wikipedia policy notes for new editors: A common objection made by new arrivals is that the article presents Sheldrake's work in an unsympathetic light and that criticism of it is too extensive or violates Wikipedia's Neutral Point of View (WP:NPOV) policy. The sections of the policy that apply directly to this article are: Neutral point of view: Fringe theories and pseudoscience (WP:PSCI) Neutral point of view: Due and undue weight (WP:UNDUE) Neutral point of view: Giving "equal validity" (WP:GEVAL) Also of particular relevance are: Tendentious editing: Righting Great Wrongs (WP:RGW) Verifiability: Exceptional claims require exceptional sources (WP:REDFLAG) In short, there are certain topics and fringe viewpoints we should not be giving false balance to. See Fringe theories (WP:FRINGE) for more context on how Wikipedia deals with fringe views.

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Arbitration ruling on the treatment of pseudoscience In December 2006, the Arbitration Committee ruled on guidelines for the presentation of topics as pseudoscience in Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience. The final decision included the following: Neutral point of view as applied to science: Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, a fundamental policy, requires fair representation of significant alternatives to scientific orthodoxy. Significant alternatives, in this case, refers to legitimate scientific disagreement, as opposed to pseudoscience. Serious encyclopedias: Serious and respected encyclopedias and reference works are generally expected to provide overviews of scientific topics that are in line with respected scientific thought. Wikipedia aspires to be such a respected work. Obvious pseudoscience: Theories which, while purporting to be scientific, are obviously bogus, such as Time Cube, may be so labeled and categorized as such without more justification. Generally considered pseudoscience: Theories which have a following, such as astrology, but which are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community may properly contain that information and may be categorized as pseudoscience. Questionable science: Theories which have a substantial following, such as psychoanalysis, but which some critics allege to be pseudoscience, may contain information to that effect, but generally should not be so characterized. Alternative theoretical formulations: Alternative theoretical formulations which have a following within the scientific community are not pseudoscience, but part of the scientific process.

It solidifies Sheldrake as the most serious challenger to materialist philosophy in the modern world. — it's not written inside the article, so not actionable. Just a general reminder: if you keep your metaphysics unfalsifiable (i.e. make no predicaments about medicine and hard sciences), then mainstream science or mainstream medicine can neither endorse nor reject your metaphysics.

What Sheldrake does not get is that philosophy/metaphysics aren't part of science. tgeorgescu (talk) 17:44, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"predicaments"? Was that predictive text? Esowteric + Talk + Breadcrumbs 17:54, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/predicament , meaning simply something that gets stated. tgeorgescu (talk) 18:12, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, thanks. I thought perhaps it had something to do with predication. Esowteric + Talk + Breadcrumbs 19:14, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I can see, Sheldrake is more than happy to carry out empirical scientific studies (eg in the case of a person's awareness of being stared at, or whether a dog can be aware that their owner is on the way home, or most recently, whether a study involving a cloned Wordle puzzle would show an effect that might be attributable to "morphic resonance" as more and more players find the solution, and to have others attempt to replicate these studies.

As Sheldrake argues in the head-to-head alluded to above and referenced in the Wikipedia article, where he is especially at odds with many mainstream scientists and sceptics is that, in his opinion, their mechanistic materialist beliefs tend to minimise the credibility of such phenomena in their eyes, or even make study of such phenomena something unworthy of consideration, if not to be actively opposed as "cosmic woo". Indeed, their mechanistic materialist beliefs, in his opinion, present a stumbling block for understanding such psychic (or panpsychic) phenomena. Esowteric + Talk + Breadcrumbs 19:30, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

His claims are technically falsifiable, but they lack biological plausibility (not: metaphysical plausibility), so mainstream scientists are not eager to falsify his claims. In the end, "that time never increases" seems a bit too fanciful to be true. tgeorgescu (talk) 02:26, 18 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Those "empirical studies" can be done in a competent way, with blinding and so on, and if they are, the result is negative. Same as with other pseudosciences.

So he calls the logically unavoidable principle of starting from the null hypothesis until one has good reason not to, a "belief"? So what? That just shows once more he does not understand how science can and cannot work.

And he thinks everybody who disagrees with him is a "stumbling block". So what? That just shows once more he does not understand how the scientific community works.

None of all that makes him a "serious challenger". --Hob Gadling (talk) 07:05, 18 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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After the current text:

Reviewing the book, Susan Blackmore criticised Sheldrake for comparing the 12 tests of random duration—which were all less than an hour long—to the initial tests where the dog may have been responding to patterns in the owner's journeys. Blackmore interpreted the results of the randomised tests as starting with a period where the dog "settles down and does not bother to go to the window," and then showing that the longer the owner was away, the more the dog went to look.^[1]

Add the following text right after:

In response to Susan Blackmore's critique, Rupert Sheldrake re-examined his twelve experiments. He found the percentage of time Jaytee spent by the window in the main period of Pam's absence was lower when the first hour was exluded than when it was included. Sheldrake noted, "Taking Blackmore's objection into account strengthens rather than weakens the evidence for Jaytee knowing when his owner was coming home, and increases the statistical significance of the comparison."^[2]

I believe I got the reference formatting correct although I'm not sure if '.' are allowed in the 'volume' field. Let me know. Jmancthree (talk) 04:16, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Done. — Antrotherkus ^{Talk to me!} 19:03, 28 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've reverted it as WP:UNDUE and soapboxing. I'm not sure what would be due without a better reference, nor should Wikipedia's voice be used for Sheldrake's claims. --Hipal (talk) 22:35, 28 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

May I ask why would this be undue and soapboxing? Also, regarding the quote, there is specific guidance in the fringe theories guideline,

Quotes that are controversial or potentially misleading need to be properly contextualized to avoid unintentional endorsement or deprecation. What is more, just because a quote is accurate and verifiably attributed to a particular source does not mean that the quote must necessarily be included in an article. The sourced contribution must simply aid in the verifiable and neutral presentation of the subject.

Sincerely, Thinker78 (talk) 03:38, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The only reference is him. --Hipal (talk) 03:49, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think the info is properly contextualized. It is using neutral language in the form "he found" not "it was proven". Also, when he talks about statements of facts language like, "the objection strenghtens rather than weakens", he is quoting himself in a quote. Therefore, if it is a quote I think it is probably ok. Now if you still object to the statements of facts, maybe as a compromise it could be made a more neutral contextualized paraphrase. Sincerely, Thinker78 (talk) 05:58, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Given that the text before that criticizes Sheldrake's findings: Reviewing the book, Susan Blackmore criticised Sheldrake for comparing the 12 tests of random duration—which were all less than an hour long—to the initial tests where the dog may have been responding to patterns in the owner's journeys. Blackmore interpreted the results of the randomised tests as starting with a period where the dog "settles down and does not bother to go to the window," and then showing that the longer the owner was away, the more the dog went to look., it is only fair that Sheldrake's rebuttal should be provided, in a neutral fashion, otherwise this is just another way for Wikipedia editors to further debunk Sheldrake and deny him redress. Esowteric + Talk + Breadcrumbs 09:30, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds like WP:FALSEBALANCE. --Hob Gadling (talk) 09:43, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Definitely FALSEBALANCE.

he found: No. That's a claim he's making in his defense, with no independent verification. --Hipal (talk) 17:36, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The current Susan Blackmore paragraph is confused text. Worse:

Blackmore interpreted the results of the randomised tests as starting with a period where the dog "settles down and does not bother to go to the window," and then showing that the longer the owner was away, the more the dog went to look.

I don't blame the original writer of this paragraph for misunderstanding what Susan said in the article, as it's of very poor quality, but Susan did not 'interpret the results' and she did not 'show that the longer the owner was away, the more the dog went to look'. The article is speculation from Blackmore for how these results could have been produced due to what she thinks might've been design problems. A reader would be left with the impression that Susan has actually done a statistical analysis on the data and has found that the significant result vanishes when her critique is accounted for. Sheldrake's published rebuttal demonstrates this speculative theory is not the cause of the result and leads to a more significant p-value when accounted for.

I appreciate Sheldrake's rebuttal is unlikely to be merged into the article for 'reasons', but I'd like to atleast fix Susan Blackmore being misrepresented. Here's what I'd change it to (and as I don't have write permissions, you'll have to be the one to merge it in):

--------------------

Reviewing the book, Susan Blackmore speculated that the significant result might be coming from a problematic experimental design. She proposed that: 1) Because every test was longer than one hour, and if, 2) Jaytee's animal behavior was to settle down for the first hour its owner was away, then, 3) This could explain why it appears Jaytee is anticipating Pam's return as, in the data, Jaytee would always be resting the first hour and moving the remainder of the time.^{[1][unbalanced opinion?]}

--------------------

This text makes it clear Susan is merely proposing what could be a 'solution' for the problem, instead of something based on an actual analysis: as the current text reads. Of course her proposition doesn't actually vanish the significant result, but that's besides the point. Jmancthree (talk) 00:51, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would say it is not about redress at all but about providing a proper balance to the article, which after all is a bio of Sheldrake himself. Only adding info about negative criticism of others against Sheldrake or his theories without including what Sheldrake said about it would certainly be unencyclopedic and more like a biased forum against Sheldrake. Sincerely, Thinker78 (talk) 20:51, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Again, that's false balance. Please review the policy. --Hipal (talk) 21:09, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Per FALSEBALANCE,

Wikipedia policy does not state or imply that every minority view, fringe theory, or extraordinary claim needs to be presented along with commonly accepted mainstream scholarship as if they were of equal validity.

I read this as it is stated, that it does not need to be presented along mainstream scholarship as if they were of equal validity. This means not to give the fringe theory equal validity as the mainstream scholarship, it does not preclude inclusion of fringe theory material. The policy does not state, it does not need to be presented along mainstream scholarship, as if they were of equal validity. Notice the comma that is not in the actual policy. This has a different meaning than the current policy, namely, it implies that including fringe theory material would provide for their equal validity with mainstream scholarship, which is not necessarily the case.

Therefore, the quote of the fringe theory policy that I quoted in a previous reply applies. Sincerely, Thinker78 (talk) 22:05, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The article already includes the fringe theory material when it describes what the book is about. It then summarizes the criticism. That is where we ought to stop, we don't need and should not have an additional layer of response to the response, that is when the fringe position gets too much weight. MrOllie (talk) 00:50, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I only pointed out that FALSEBALANCE doesn't preclude the inclusion of the material at hand. But certainly whether to include it or not is a matter of consensus. Sincerely, Thinker78 (talk) 01:30, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

FALSEBALANCE means that it is only fair that Sheldrake's rebuttal should be provided, in a neutral fashion does not fly. --Hob Gadling (talk) 07:47, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not having better sources for the material is what precludes the inclusion.

As far as consensus is concerned, let's avoid any WP:CONLOCAL problems. --Hipal (talk) 17:12, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The article in the German Wikipedia appears to give a more neutral account of this scientist and his work. Are Wikipedias in other languages counted as WP: RS by the English Wikipedia? YTKJ (talk) 21:05, 1 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

No, see WP:RSPWP. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:09, 1 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]